Great Lives Preview: Charlie Hustle
Drew Gallagher interviews Keith O'Brien, author of the Pete Rose biography, "Charlie Hustle." He will speak at the UMW Great Lives Lecture Series on Thursday evening.
By Drew Gallagher
Last year, New York Times best-selling author Keith O’Brien wrote what might be the most comprehensive biography on baseball legend Pete Rose. The book, Charlie Hustle, was released a few months before Rose passed away at age 83. O’Brien received unprecedented access to Rose while writing the book, and O’Brien is coming to the University of Mary Washington as part of its Great Lives series on Thursday, January 23rd to discuss baseball’s all-time hit king. O’Brien gave an interview to Drew Gallagher of the FXBG Advance.
Gallagher: How did you gain such unfettered access to Pete Rose for Charlie Hustle? Had this been a project you were considering for quite some time, and did you get a commitment from Pete to be involved from the outset? And I suppose the access was unfettered until it wasn’t. Were you surprised by the swiftness with which he seemingly cut you off once you started asking about his personal life and the failed marriages?
O’Brien: Pete Rose had never before spoken to an author for a book, unless he had editorial control over that book or, indeed, was being paid. I had no intention of granting Pete any such arrangement, so I knew it was going to be hard to get access to him. But I also knew that my Cincinnati roots could work in my favor. I was born on the West Side of Cincinnati, just like Pete, and I began my reporting, not by calling Pete, but by calling people in Cincinnati who were his friends. I interviewed them, built trust with them, and through my relationships with them got an introduction to Pete Rose. Once Pete and I were talking—first on the phone and then in person—I wondered every day if it might end. I was asking him hard questions. I was pushing him to reckon with his past. And so, while it was disappointing when he shut down, it wasn’t surprising to me at all.
Gallagher: In the time you spent with Pete and writing the book what were the impressions of Pete that you took away from the project? In the book, he seems to express remorse about betting on the game but only to a certain point. He also seems to have created his own narrative about a number of issues—the gym and the possibility of performance-enhancing drugs, the betting on the Reds—how was he able to maintain his own truths in the face of evidence to the contrary? I don’t think he was a dumb man in the least (his wit comes through quite well in your book) but many of his actions were dumb in practice. He might have felt that it was Pete against the World, but the World was actually pretty good to him considering the Cincinnati upbringing that you so richly describe. His hard work paid off handsomely.
O’Brien: I learned from sitting in Pete’s presence just how charismatic he could be. Even in his early 80s, he could own a room, win over a crowd, and make total strangers feel love. Seeing this in person helped me understand why reporters defended Pete in the 1970s and ‘80s, keeping his secrets in the shadows, and why many of Pete’s closest friends would do anything for him. Later, these people, Pete’s friends, would realize the errors of their ways and tell investigators anything they wanted to know about Pete. But in this moment, Pete seemed to believe that he could do what he always did: outwork the problem, charm people who were against him, and hustle his way out of trouble. His greatest attributes would almost doom him to his fate.
Gallagher: From a personal standpoint, Pete was my boyhood idol (shared by millions who grew up loving baseball in the ‘60s and ‘70s no doubt) and his banishment from baseball was devastating. As was his recent death. He seemed to be lonely in the twilight of his life. Did you get a sense that he was lonely and was filled with regret? Even if he did not express that outwardly.
O’Brien: I think it’s hard for anyone who lived a life like Pete Rose—and achieved the sort of fame that he did—to move on after the cheering is over. Pete wasn’t someone who lived in the past, and he never would have admitted to being lonely or filled with regrets. Pete never wanted to appear weak. But he loved baseball so much, I think it was hard for him to fill that void after it was over, and I know it was hard on him to be banished from that world for the last 35 years of his life.
Gallagher: I was in Cooperstown for Mike Schmidt’s Hall of Fame induction speech and was struck by his earnestness in asking the Hall to consider Pete Rose for enshrinement. He obviously had great fans within the game and was a respected teammate. Do you think the Hall will ever let him in? Pete seemed to think that it was only in death that he would ever be allowed entry.
O’Brien: In 2024, Americans legally wagered about $135 billion on sports, and this new world of legalized gambling spawned scandal after scandal involving college and professional athletes. Ironically, I think each gambling scandal helps Pete Rose. These scandals will only get worse in the years to come and, as they do, a younger generation, raised in a culture of gambling, will have lots of questions about Pete Rose. For that reason, yes, I do think that some day Pete will get in.
Gallagher: Who were some of the people you wanted to speak with for “Charlie Hustle” who might have been hesitant to participate or refused to be a part of the biography for whatever reason or grudge they might hold?
O’Brien: For the book, I interviewed hundreds of people: former players, everyone in Pete Rose’s inner circle, three different men who placed Pete’s bets on baseball, John Dowd and the entire team of investigators who pursued his sins in 1989, Pete’s family members, his ex-wives, and his mistresses. Through this reporting, I built, I believe, a comprehensive portrait of one of our most polarizing athletes. But of course, there were some people who declined interviews, and one of them was Pete’s teammate, Hall of Fame catcher Johnny Bench. Bench is arguably the greatest catcher in baseball history. But all too often over the years, people didn’t want to talk to Bench about that; they wanted to talk to him about Pete. And I was told through back channels that Bench was done. He was finished giving interviews about Pete Rose.
The Great Lives lecture by author Keith O’Brien is in Dodd Auditorium on the campus of the University of Mary Washington on Thursday, January 23rd at 7:30pm.
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